Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:07 pm

I study the bible fairly regularly and enjoy comparing current events with those that are foretold in scripture. When something is not in black and white, one can see how a particular event might lend itself to what's expected to occur down the road.

The book of Isaiah is in the old testiment and there are a number of different prophecies, two of which are described as occurring at the same time.

If you've been keeping up with what's going on in Syria and Egypt, you'll know that Demascus was bombed last week and there is great potential for more violence. You'll also know about how Egyptions are up in arms over their first president whose taken on the role of a dictator by granting himself power well beyond the limits of his defined role. There is continual violence and pretest over this issue, and it does not appear to be dying down.

Now I will present the two pieces of scripture, once again, from the book of Isaiah in the old testiment. Very interesting.

Isaiah 17:1-3
1) “See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins. 2) The cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid. 3) The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and royal power from Damascus; the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the Israelites,” declares the Lord Almighty.

Isaiah 19:1-4
1) See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear. 2) “I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—brother will fight against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. 3) The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists. 4) I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them,” declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.
Image

Spud Runner
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Ellsworth » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:58 pm

If you'll indulge me, Fish, I'd like to throw in a bit of historical context to the verses you mention regarding Damascus.

The verses in Isaiah 17:1-3 are not talking about the city of Damascus we know of today, but Aram Damascus, which was an Aramaean state that included Damascus and the region around it. There is a direct reference to this in the bible verse you quoted:

FiSH wrote:"The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and royal power from Damascus; the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the Israelites...”

The Aramaeans ruled this area from the 12th century BC until the early 7th century BC. The Aramaean state is long gone, and so is Aram Damascus. It will take a bit to explain, so bear with me.

I think we need to consider what was happening in this region during the 8th century BC, when the portion of Isaiah we're talking about was written...

"The city of Damascus was repeatedly attacked by Assyria, as the latter gained power. In 841 B.C.E. and again in 838 B.C.E., Shalmaneser III [king of Assyria] besieged it, destroying the vineyards and orchards surrounding the city. Later Adad-Nirari III [another king of Assyria] twice (or even three times) spared the city only after being paid a heavy tribute. In 773 B.C.E. Shalmaneser IV [yet another king of Assyria] also campaigned against Damascus, weakening it sufficiently to allow Jeroboam II, king of Israel, to impose his suzerainty [power or domain] over it; and in 732 B.C.E. the final blow was delivered by Tiglath-Pileser III [and yet another king of Assyria]” - Jewish Virtual Library

The first bit of text from Isaiah you posted is a prediction of the fall of Aram Damascus. Anyone living at that time with knowledge of the political happenings in that region could have made such a prediction. Many wars, and the fall of ruling states, have been predicted by scholars throughout history. It also needs to be mentioned that during this period in Mesopotamia, people from all over the region intermingled with one another to trade, sharing cultures, religious beliefs, and political ideas. This caused huge growth spurts as well as the destruction of ruling states and cultures. Ancient Damascus was a major trade route stop for people traveling throughout the region. Everyone wanted a piece of it, and it was fought over for centuries. The author of this portion of Isaiah simply saw the Aramaean rule over Damascus coming to an end.

Aram Damascus has already been “destroyed." It happened when Tiglath-Pileser III dealt “the final blow” that I mentioned above: he “sacked Damascus and annexed Aram. According to 2 Kings 16:9, the population was deported and Rezin [King of Aram] executed. Tiglath-Pileser [III] also records this act in one of his inscriptions.” Thus, the end of Aram Damascus. [Side note: The Book of Kings covers the ancient history of Israel from mid 9th century BC to mid 5th century BC.]

Fish, you had to know that you'd get a response to this post that didn't agree with your interpretation of this bit of biblical scripture. I hope that my response doesn't make you feel disrespected in any way. That was not my intention.

Spud Runner
User avatar
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: California

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby jacobvandy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:56 pm

The Middle East has been at war with itself for as long as civilization has existed. There are ebbs and flows, like anything, but predicting conflict anywhere in that entire region is like predicting the sun will come up tomorrow... No offense.
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:00 am

Ellsworth wrote:Fish, you had to know that you'd get a response to this post that didn't agree with your interpretation of this bit of biblical scripture. I hope that my response doesn't make you feel disrespected in any way. That was not my intention.


No disrespect whatsoever. I'm aware of the early events at Aram Demacus but the city was merely captured. It wasn't left in complete ruins and it did not cease to be a city. So the prophecy was only partially fulfilled. The verses following describe other events that will mark the destruction of Damascus - events that have not yet occurred, such as Israel finally turning away from their alters and lose their regard for hand-made symbolic artifacts upon Christ's return. There are incense alters and Asherah poles in waiting today to be placed inside the third holy temple when it is rebuilt. Their turning away marks the desolation of Demascus, deamed the world's oldest continually inhabited city - a heap of ruins abandoned to thickets and undergrowth.
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:12 am

Here's another correlation between biblical prophecy and events in recent years. While chemical warfare can't be tied to scripture, something like it or worse could be the link.

Matthew 24:15-22

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.



Samaria to Shelter Jews in Case of Chemical War, Drill Shows
Israel National News – May 25, 2010

In case of a war involving the possible use of chemical warheads, communities in Samaria could serve as a refuge for citizens escaping Israel’s coastal plain and other regions, a new element in the ongoing national war drill shows. This year’s drill is the first to include practice of a plan for mass evacuation of citizens from areas under missile attack to the relative safety of the Biblical heartland.

One reason for evacuating citizens to Samaria in case of chemical attack is that the altitudes there are higher than in the coastal plain. The poison gas emitted by chemical warheads begins to sink when it enters the air, accumulating in the lower altitudes. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/137696
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:21 pm
Location: Dallas, TX USA

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby ZeroGuardian » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:35 pm

Fish,

I first want to correct your statement about Damascus being the oldest inhabited city in the world. It's not, that title belongs to Byblos.

Next I'd just like to point out that you are taking VERY vague things and trying to fit the pieces together in a way that agrees with you're views. This is known as the "Sharpshooter Fallacy".

As for the verses that "could" (again vague references) be linked to chemical warfare, there are things within nature that can produce the same effects. Take Lake Nyos, it released a deadly cloud of CO2 that killed over a thousand people. These types of things don't require some new advanced technology to be "fulfilled".

Also any prophecy that doesn't have an actual time for the events to occur will be "fulfilled" given enough time. That's called "self-fulfilling prophecy" which is another logical fallacy on its own.

There is no evidence that any prophecy in the bible or any other religious text (some of which have much more compelling prophecies BTW) has been proven to be even remotely accurate. All the bible provides is vague descriptions that can be interpreted a million different ways, and when you combine that with a throng of people that are actively seeking these prophecies then some of them are just bound to occur at the hands of the very people seeking them (see Isreal's "re-creation" after WW2).

I'm sorry but your going to have to provide more then just vague text from a bronze age book to even start to convince me of any "prophecy".
Image
If you make it idiot proof, they will just make a better idiot.

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:56 pm

ZeroGuardian wrote:Fish, I first want to correct your statement about Damascus being the oldest inhabited city in the world. It's not, that title belongs to Byblos.


Bablos has been given no title, just as Demascus hasn't. For every expert that believed Byblos is the oldest, I can show you claims from ten experts that say Damascus is. I said that Demascus was "deemed" the oldest inhabited city, meaning that it is merey held in that regard, or believed to be - just like Byblos.

ZeroGuardian wrote:Next I'd just like to point out that you are taking VERY vague things and trying to fit the pieces together in a way that agrees with you're views.


A specific city was named and and its fate was revealed. Demascus is not vague and its destruction is not vague. I'm simply looking at that specific city and noticing how current events might lead to that fate. No puzzles. No slant. I'm only observing. The only claim I have made is that the correlation is interesting.

ZeroGuardian wrote:There is no evidence that any prophecy in the bible or any other religious text (some of which have much more compelling prophecies BTW) has been proven to be even remotely accurate.


Christ was prophesied, as were many events that were fulfilled as the bible was written and thereafter. The flood is one such event. I believe that God's word is accurate. Others do not, and I understand that.

ZeroGuardian wrote:I'm sorry but your going to have to provide more then just vague text from a bronze age book to even start to convince me of any "prophecy".


Apology accepted.
Image

Spud Runner
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Ellsworth » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:59 pm

FiSH wrote:I'm aware of the early events at Aram Demacus but the city was merely captured. It wasn't left in complete ruins and it did not cease to be a city. So the prophecy was only partially fulfilled.

This is my take on it...

The text is referring specifically to Damascus under Aramaenean rule (Aram Damascus). So, the results of this prediction have already happened. There isn't anything in the text that mentions the “complete ruins” of Damascus. You're talking about Isaiah 17:9, yes? That verse, translated from the original Hebrew, reads something like this:

“In that day shall his
strong cities be as a
forsaken bough, and an
uppermost branch, which
they left because of the
children of Israel: and there
shall be desolation.”
(Isaiah 17:9 - From the Hebrew Interlinear Bible)

This verse speaks of “desolation,” but in a metaphorical manner. The author believes that the cities of the pagans, and their influence on the Israelites and the region, will fade away because the god of Israel and his people will take over and flourish.

...[Damascus will be] a heap of ruins abandoned to thickets and undergrowth.

I assume you're reading the NIV, yes? If not, your version sounds very similar. The NIV, like many other translations, strays from the original Hebrew text. Although, it still doesn't say Damascus will be “abandoned to thickets and undergrowth.” Isaiah 17:9 (NIV): “In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth.” Note the word “like,” as in “similar to.” It's a metaphor. The verse also says, “their strong cities;” not one city, as in Damascus. There is no mention of the physical destruction of the city of Damascus, that I can find, anywhere in this chapter of Isaiah.

The verses following [Isaiah 17:1-3] describe other events that will mark the destruction of Damascus events that have not yet occurred, such as Israel finally turning away from their alters and lose their regard for hand-made symbolic artifacts upon Christ's return. There are incense alters and Asherah poles in waiting today to be placed inside the third holy temple when it is rebuilt.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. For the sake of continuity, I'll add the verse you're referring to:

“In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles
and the incense altars their fingers have made.”
(Isaiah 17:8 NIV)

You're probably aware of most of the things I'm about to say, but I think they need to be said for the sake of conversation, and to put this verse in perspective.

The Asherah “poles” were sacred trees that were places of worship to the pagan goddess Asherah. The placing of these poles in Hebrew temples is mentioned in the Old Testament. Are you referring to the poles of Asherah that King Mannaseh placed in a Hebrew holy temple in Jerusalem? That instance in 2 Kings, and the one in Isaiah, speaks of the influence the pagan religions had on the Israelites. As you know, there is mention of polytheistic practices by the Israelites throughout the Old Testament, and warnings against such practices. As I mentioned before, religions in that region influenced one another. It was a religious mash-up, so to speak, and the Hebrew religious leaders didn't like it. The incense and altars also refer to pagan religious practices of the Israelites, and the author says (correctly) that they will abandon these things to worship the “Holy One of Israel” exclusively. The “turning away from their alters and los(ing) their regard for hand-made symbolic artifacts” you mention has already happened. The Israelites gave up their polytheistic beliefs and practices long ago. They haven't worshiped Asherah, or any other pagan gods, alongside their God for ages. It should be said that not all of the Israelites embraced pagan gods, but this activity was prominent enough that their leaders were concerned about it.

There's no mention of the return of a savior in these verses. There also isn't any allusion to a future savior, but a present savior. Isaiah 17:10 (NIV): “You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.” This refers to God, as in “God the Father,” who saved the Israelites from slavery and led them out of Egypt. God was their “Rock,” or foundation. They "forgot" this when they started worshiping pagan gods.

Again.. I realize you know most of this stuff, but I had to include it to put my points into context.
I love ancient history. I'm sure everyone else around here is enthralled by this conversation. :P

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:19 am

What I meant was that the equivalent of incense alters and Asherah poles were waiting and ready to be placed in the temple. You're not incorrect, but I believe the sentiment extends far forward to when the jews will give up these things. The tie-in with the prophecy of Egypt also reflects a time representative of today. For instance, the Nile River has never run dry. In the time being described, it has - and that's occurring now. A deceptive ruler is over Egypt while the Nile is drying. You also read about the highway from Egypt to Syria and that they will be going back and forth. This is also happening, thought not by means of a physical highway. Rather, there is a network which serves as a means for Syrians to enter Egypt and vice-versa to worship God in what are called 'prayer houses.'

Back to Morsi, Egypt is divided over what's transpiring and Egyptian civilians are fighting each other as described in Isaiah 19:2. You can read about that here. To depart from this a bit, Ezekiel includes God's future plans to gather the jews from among the nations and put an end to their idols; another reason I believe that Isaiah speaks of the far future. Anyway, the last twenty years has seen the highest number of jews immigrating to Isreal. The last decade has produced more immigrants than any other. According to a report I read, there are more languages spoken in Israel today than in any other country as a result. Toss in the increase in earthquakes that Jesus said will occur when his return is near. 2011 and 2012 have seen the highest percentages of seismic activity. As for the wars and rumors of wars, that increasing trend goes without saying.

Anyway, I know I'm jumping around here. But I believe that scripture is and will be dead on when it's all over. Much of this will be explained away, I know. But I enjoy talking about it, which is why I chose the topic. And I'll be continually weighing current events and how they stand to stack up towards what God says is going to occur. Not shoving my beliefs down anyone's throats; I'm just sharing my thoughts and inviting anyone to weigh in with theirs.
Image

Spud Runner
User avatar
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: California

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby jacobvandy » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:13 pm

If Jesus comes back, you should invite him to game night. Let he who is without sin pwn the first noob.
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:28 pm

^ LOL!!!! Awesome!
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:21 pm
Location: Dallas, TX USA

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby ZeroGuardian » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:42 pm

Fish my problem with all of this is there is still no date associated with these "prophecies". Because of this you run into a problem where the same series (or at least similar) events continue to transpire and people just as soon forget about them when they pass by without the supposed prophecy taking full effect.

Do you realize how many times religions and/or their followers have made predictions/prophecies that the "end times" are near? Its in the tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) and yet every single time they prove false and humanity goes on without a second thought. So what makes you think that this has any more prevalence than the thousands of times before?

If you think the bible can actually make predictions/prophecies then why are there so many that have failed?
Image
If you make it idiot proof, they will just make a better idiot.

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:10 pm

^ The bible hasn't failed. People have failed with their own predictions. There's one made about the end times every decade or so. No man will know when the world will end, so every man who claims to know simply can't. I'm not making any claim as to when Christ's return will be. Be he said we should start looking when the specific trends that he spoke of present themselves. He told his desciples to start looking as well, despite knowing that he wasn't coming back during their lifetime. God's will is for us to stay on our toes and not get lulled to sleep by the cares of this world.

So, do I believe that we are living in the times that Jesus spoke of? Absolutely. The trends he told us to recognize are evident and escalating. Can I predict with any accuracy when Christ will return? No. I will, however, have a better idea when Israel begins to build their temple in Jerusalem after signing a UN inspired agreement with Palestine, or something along those lines. When this occurs, we can expect Christ's return to be toward the end of or after 42 months of building. The one who people call the antichrist will enter the scene at that time, sack the temple, and rally the surrounding nations to attack Isreal. Some time around when this happens is when Christ will return. But we still don't know exactly when.

Oh, and it's very apparent that the person who wrote that article did so with the intention of proving the bible wrong from the git-go. The answers to a number of passages he's calling out are in the bible, which he obviously hasn't studied. My son raised questions like his at age 4.
Image

Spud Runner
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Ellsworth » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:21 pm

FiSH wrote:You're not incorrect...

Which means that I must be... correct. ;)

You also read about the highway from Egypt to Syria and that they will be going back and forth. This is also happening, thought not by means of a physical highway. Rather, there is a network which serves as a means for Syrians to enter Egypt and vice-versa to worship God in what are called 'prayer houses.'

This also refers to what was happening at the time Isaiah was written. A trade route, or “highway,” from Damascus to Egypt (among other places) was already there. It was part of a huge trade network that existed for hundreds of years before the time Isaiah was written. The Assyrians, not Syrians, are also mentioned specifically in that chapter. It's in reference to the expansion of the Assyrian Empire. I mentioned part of this in my first post as it pertained to Damascus. What I didn't include was that the Assyrians took over Egypt somewhere around the early 7th century BC. I'm too lazy to look up the specifics or exact dates at the moment.

What I meant was that the equivalent of incense alters and Asherah poles were waiting and ready to be placed in the temple...but I believe the sentiment extends far forward to when the jews will give up these things.

I don't understand. These things were already in some of the Jewish temples at the time. Are you saying the Jews currently have pagan symbols like the altars and poles ready to be placed in the temple? If that's what you mean, as I said, the Jews gave up their polytheistic practices ages ago. If this isn't what you mean, what will the Jews "give up?"

...but I believe...

In that case, our conversation may have reached an impasse. I depend on historical records and analysis of the text to support my claims; you depend on belief. You say tomato, I say cucumber. :P I provided evidence to my claim that this chapter in Isaiah refers to circumstances in the region at the time it was written by using different historical and biblical references. You have every right to depend on belief to support your claims, but unfortunately, belief does not provide evidence. It's one thing to say that you believe something the bible says, it's another to believe the bible is saying something without there being solid evidence in the text itself to support your belief.

All this being said, I don't think there's any harm in you believing what you want to believe, as long as it doesn't affect people that don't believe it. Other less tolerant people may disagree with me. I know you're not the type of Christian to go pissing on other peoples gates with this stuff. I am reminded of a verse in Matthew, regarding prophets, that says: “You shall know them by their fruits.” I know that you're not claiming to be a prophet, but I think this verse can apply to anyone. I don't claim to know you, or judge you, based on your religious beliefs. I know you to be a stand-up guy because of your actions. I am the only non-Christian in my entire family, but they are open-minded, caring people like yourself, so we get along great. Their actions make them who they are, not their religious beliefs. Like you, they don't try to “save” me or push their beliefs on me. So, we're good. I'm getting way off-topic here, but after some of the things I said in this post, I wanted to reiterate that my intentions are not malicious.

I didn't hop in this thread to disprove your belief in the second coming of Christ. I just wanted to debate the meaning of the verses you posted. Like I said, I love ancient history. I see the text as part of ancient Hebrew history; you see it as prophecy. At this point, I think we may have to agree to disagree. I've said everything I have to say on the Isaiah bit (I think). :P

I sure can ramble on, can't I? :crazy:

Flyby Spud
User avatar
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby gregorov_14 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:26 pm

Drat, just when I was about to get some popcorn ;-) I wasn't gonna add anything, just that I find this fascinating listening to the debate. Personally, I try not to worry about the end-times, because no one's gonna know when (heck, even the Bible says so). Much easier to live when you're not worried about dying or the world ending.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:44 am

Here's my last question. When Israel begins building their temple (as God says), when individuals begin to show up and claim to be the messiah in an attempt to exploit and deceive the jews (as God says), when the celebration of the completed temple is interrupted by man who sacks the temple and claims to have power over God (as God says), when the jews flee from Israel seeking safe passage in the surrounding mountains (as God says), when this man rallies the surrounding nations who will in turn attack the fleeing jews (as God says), and the sun suddenly goes dark and the stars begin to fall to the earth (as God says), and when the believers on the earth all disappear (as God says), will you at some point come to grips with the truths in the bible and accept Jesus, the son of God as your Lord and savior?

God says that, even during the destruction of the earth that follows these events, people will still refuse to believe that there is a God. Will this be you?

This is for anyone to answer.
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:21 pm
Location: Dallas, TX USA

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby ZeroGuardian » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:35 am

No...

Because any God that is willing to allow people to kill others in his/her name (see Bible for ample references) or condemn people for an attribute they are born with (see Gay people) or punishes people for all eternity when even the most heinous of acts can be punished enough for or who would allow global atrocities like hunger and AIDS and yet is somehow ok with his followers pulling in millions of dollars (see mega churches or the Vatican) or who shows any form of petty emotion such as jealousy or who requires their followers to worship them in any shape or form IS A TYRANT AND IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY WORSHIP OR FOLLOWERS.
Image
If you make it idiot proof, they will just make a better idiot.

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:05 am

God is love. He loves His children and wants their love in return, just as any father does. Gay people are equally loved and can receive salvation. Death and disease was introduced as a result of sin that we may be forgiven of by His grace - the sacrifice of His son, Jesus on our behalf. His will is that none should perish, yet we are given the choice to worship Him for who He is and for what He has done for us or reject Him.

A tyrant would go to no length for us. God went to the ultimate length for us.
Image

Spud Runner
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Ellsworth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:30 am

Alright. This is getting out of hand.

Fish: What happened? You and I had a civil conversation going, and then you did the one thing that I said you've never done (which made you a cool Christian): you pushed your beliefs on us. Your post goes way over the line.

FiSH wrote:...will you at some point come to grips with the truths in the bible and accept Jesus, the son of God as your Lord and savior?

To answer your question: My spiritual life is nobody's business but my own.

ZeroGuardian wrote:No...Because any God that is willing to [insert rant] IS A TYRANT AND IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY WORSHIP OR FOLLOWERS.

This response to Fish's inappropriate evangelizing goes too far. There was no need to tear apart his beliefs. I realize his post was out of line, but this is too much.

You guys need to cool it. The SP forums is not the place to question people's spritituality, push your religious beliefs, or tear apart other people's beliefs.

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:06 pm

The intention of my post was simply to present a series of prophetic events that are to come. Zero has said that biblical prophecy has failed. I wanted to know if his attitude would change if he witnessed a number of these himself. And would such a change in attitude cause him (or anyone who wanted to answer) to seek God?

Evangelizing? Yep. My role as a Christian is to tell others (especially those I love) about God. That occured in every post I've made. I'm not "pushing" anything on anyone and I'm not out of line in the slightest. I'm simply continuing the discussion about biblical prophecy. Sharing who we believe God is helps us to understand why we feel the way we do about the subject. I'm not the least bit unnerved about Zero's post. He's not attacking me. He's a great guy and nothing being discussed here is going cause me to respect him any less.
Image

Flyby Spud
User avatar
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:21 pm
Location: West Texas

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby jwhx » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:19 pm

This is what you call out of hand, Ells? Seems pretty tame to me.

Flyby Spud
User avatar
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Natedog » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:55 pm

jwhx wrote:This is what you call out of hand, Ells? Seems pretty tame to me.


I have to agree. I've been reading (but not posting since I agree with a majority of Fish's so no need to be redundant), and Fish, nor Zero has gotten out of hand. Second, this thread is in the Politics and RELIGION forum so if you don't want to read it.....don't. Fish isn't pushing his beliefs on any, just making a case for why he believes what he does and asking if you will follow him in that.


I'd hate to see what would happen if me and OFTA or Squiddy get into it ;)

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:21 pm
Location: Dallas, TX USA

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby ZeroGuardian » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:08 pm

I'll agree that my post was put up there more as an immediate reaction to Fish's and I might have posted something different had I waited. I was certainly not targeting any single person, just stating my feelings on the matter.
Image
If you make it idiot proof, they will just make a better idiot.

Spud Raider
User avatar
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:14 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Synchronicity » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:40 pm

I thought Zero's post was fine. As was Fish's. There's nothing personal going on, merely a back and forth.
Image

Spud Runner
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Ellsworth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Natedog wrote:...this thread is in the Politics and RELIGION forum so if you don't want to read it.....don't. Fish isn't pushing his beliefs on any, just making a case for why he believes what he does and asking if you will follow him in that.

I'm well aware that this is the Politics/Religion forum. I'm the one who set it up. I kept reading this thread because I was expecting a response from Fish about Isaiah 17. The whole "are you guys gonna accept Jesus" thing was irrelevant to the conversation.

At first, Fish was making a case for why he believes the way he does, but when (out of nowhere) he asked us if we were gonna accept his god as our lord and savior, he was no longer making a case for his beliefs. The moment he said "are you.." he went from expressing his own thoughts and beliefs to questioning whether or not we would accept his beliefs. There's a huge difference.

Fish: You were not continuing the discussion about biblical prophecy. You were asking whether or not we were gonna accept Jesus. We were talking about what Isaiah 17 really meant, and suddenly you got preachy. Asking people if they are going to receive Jesus as their Lord and savior is pushing your religious beliefs. Spiritual matters are personal. Sharing your beliefs would be expressed by telling us about what they have done for you, and why you believe the way you do. You weren't telling us about God, you were asking us when we were gonna accept what you think is "truth."

FiSH wrote:...will you at some point come to grips with the truths in the bible and accept Jesus, the son of God as your Lord and savior?

This implies that you know the "truth" and we don't, or we haven't accepted it. You're saying that if we don't believe like you do we somehow don't know "truth." You're saying that we don't have a "grip" on the truth. How is that not disrespectful? To me, that was out of line. I know you didn't intentionally mean to disrespect me/us/anyone. We've been friends for too long for me to think that. Your post also followed my last post about the "highway" you mentioned, and the Assyrian Empire. Instead of continuing with the topic at hand, you went preachy.

I don't need to be told about the Christian god either. I was a Christian and studied the bible extensively until I became a born-again agnostic. I never once said anything to the effect of: "When are you going to come to grips with the truth that the bible is just a book?" I wouldn't disrespect you like that. You went in an extreme direction.

Evidently, no one else here thinks the way I do. When people claim to know "truth" because they believe it to be so, and then ask me when or if I'm going to accept their version of "truth," it drives me straight up the wall.

I have no worries that any sort of respect or friendship will be lost from conversations like this, or that what was being said was somehow stepping out of the bounds of what is permitted on these forums. That wasn't my point when I said this thread was getting out of hand. I meant that it was straying from the original point of the conversation, which was, again: the meaning of Isaiah 17. I'm also of the opinion that the thread deteriorated into disrespect and ranting from both Zero and Fish; whether it was direct/intentional or not is irrelevant. I just thought it was pointless. But you know.. I guess that's the nature of this community when we engage in conversations like this: a slow downward spiral into pointlessness.

See y'all tonight for Firefall! :))

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:48 pm

The point of the back & forth in this thread steered toward whether of not God's word as the absolute truth. Ells and I started off began discussing our different understandings of the scripture. Zero denied biblical scripture altogether. His comment was welcome, so I engaged him about why he feels that way. He then pointed out the lack of proof. I responded inquiring of his outlook if proof was presented to him. Would he do one of the two things; come to terms with the accuracy of scripture and seek God or continue to deny its accuracy and reject Him? Seeking God and rejecting him are essentially the two outcomes of faith or disbelief. I wanted to know what he would do given the proper evidence.

Ells, you've gotten all out of sorts over this and it's not warranted. I love you man, but take a chill pill.
Image

Spud Runner
User avatar
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: California

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby jacobvandy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:55 pm

But those things happening would not be proof of anything, Fish. (Assuming they even could happen, e.g. stars wouldn't fall to the Earth, if one were to somehow collide with us, we'd all be dead a good while before the actual impact happens and demolishes the planet like a bug on a windshield.) You don't know that God said those things, you just heard it through the proverbial grapevine. There is a much better chance that it's just some ancient weirdo who made it up while he was smoking weed through a hookah, or saw the end of the world during a bad trip on mushrooms.

If I were to say that a Vietnamese prostitute would go on a naked shoplifting spree in your hometown tomorrow, then blame it on Bud Light, and that led to the re-prohibition of alcohol in Tennessee, and it actually happened... That's correlation without causation, or coincidence, or dumb luck. To prove that I'm actually some kind of oracle of the bizarre, I'd need to establish a clear track record of predictions that came true. MOST IMPORTANTLY, I would also have to know when these things would happen, because as Zero already pointed out, almost anything could happen given enough time (like thousands of years). Only then would people have reason to love, fear, respect, or whatever me for my power over their mortal lives! Because maybe, the reason I know those things would happen, is because I cause them, right? Not really.

Not sure if I've gone on record in saying this before, but I'm also an atheist. I'm not unreasonable, however, so if God wanted to prove to me he exists, he feasibly could... Part some clouds and have a booming conversation with me, perform a few miracles in front of my eyes, have Jesus float down on a cloud and shake my hand, etc. Then we can talk about me "accepting the truth."
Image

Flyby Spud
User avatar
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Natedog » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:59 am

Ellsworth wrote:At first, Fish was making a case for why he believes the way he does, but when (out of nowhere) he asked us if we were gonna accept his god as our lord and savior, he was no longer making a case for his beliefs. The moment he said "are you.." he went from expressing his own thoughts and beliefs to questioning whether or not we would accept his beliefs. There's a huge difference.




So you say "No, I do not" or "Yes, I do" and move the fuck along. Don't get your damn panties in a twist over nothing.

Spud Runner
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Ellsworth » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:48 am

^ You're missing the point of the portion of my post that you quoted. It was in response to this..

Natedog wrote:...this thread is in the Politics and RELIGION forum so if you don't want to read it.....don't. Fish isn't pushing his beliefs on any, just making a case for why he believes what he does and asking if you will follow him in that.

In a nutshell, what I was saying was.. No, he wasn't "just making a case for why he believes what he does and asking if you will follow him in that." I guess you missed that.

I think I'm done here.

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:44 pm

jacobvandy wrote:You don't know that God said those things, you just heard it through the proverbial grapevine. There is a much better chance that it's just some ancient weirdo who made it up while he was smoking weed through a hookah, or saw the end of the world during a bad trip on mushrooms.


A dictator ruling over Egypt causing a division that resulted in civilians fighting against each other. The Nile River drying up causing a toxic stench from the dried canals. All at the same time. All a reality. Random trippings from a hookah smoker? Really?

Somehow I think that if it wasn't scripture that foretold those events, people might be willing to entertain the idea that there might be something to this. If I was an atheist, this may not tip my scales but I'd certainly find it interesting. I definitely wouldn't explain it away with probable this that and the other. It's entirely too specific to be a run-of-the-mill coincidence. I had no expectations of people here seeing this and running off to church. I just didn't expect such hard heads, but that's acceptable all the same.
Image

Spud Raider
User avatar
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:14 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Synchronicity » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:32 pm

Fish, the Bible isn't the only place where specific predictions are found. I mean, there is this little event coming up this month that has everyone entertained (the Mayan apocalypse). A very famous non-Biblical example of specific predictions sorta coming true was with Nostradamus, but as previously mentioned if you create enough predictions and make it general and plausible enough, plus give it time, you'll have yourself a fulfilled prophecy.

Egypt being divided has happened several times throughout history and the Nile drying up has been a cornerstone of ancient Egyptian apocalypse.
Image

Spud Runner
User avatar
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:39 pm
Location: California

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby jacobvandy » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:10 pm

Except those things AREN'T specific... Did the prophecy name the dictator? Or give any other non-generic details about him? Because he's not the first (nor probably the last) dictator Egypt will ever be ruled by. You can be damn sure it's not the first major occurrence of civil unrest there, either. It's also not the first time the Nile river has ever "dried up." It never gets completely dry, but droughts have happened before, and there's evidence of a mega-drought that happened around 16,000 years ago (which is believed to have been caused by climate change similar to what we're seeing today, it's a natural cycle).

To have a dictator in Egypt at the time of a drought is happenstance. Nothing more. To insist any significance as to the correlation between those two events this time is fallacy, as Zero pointed out before. Your faith is influencing your perception of entirely ordinary events and causing you to jump to conclusions, to assume they are indication of something more, something divine. I'll bet it's happened more than once before, without the world at large having any idea. Did the apocalypse happen any of those times? We're still here, aren't we? Or perhaps more importantly, YOU are still here. What if the rapture happened already, and you were left behind? What if your god is not *the* god, so to Him you're just another hard-headed non-believer?
Image

Space Fry
User avatar
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:42 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Samuel71 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:19 pm

jacobvandy wrote:Not sure if I've gone on record in saying this before, but I'm also an atheist. I'm not unreasonable, however, so if God wanted to prove to me he exists, he feasibly could... Part some clouds and have a booming conversation with me, perform a few miracles in front of my eyes, have Jesus float down on a cloud and shake my hand, etc. Then we can talk about me "accepting the truth."


I think even in that case, I would have to lean towards acute psychosis. Supernatural experiences are just too common of a human psychological fluke to base a belief system on (look at schizophrenia). That said, it would be very hard (if not impossible) to convince oneself that such an experience was nothing but a nervous system glitch.
Image

Spud Raider
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby FiSH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:16 pm

I vote we agree to disagree and move on to enjoying some games together. :)
Image

Tater Tot
User avatar
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:17 pm

Re: Prophetic Studies

Postby Firing Squid » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:47 pm

"God" is one to a customer. Believe whatever you will, it really only makes a difference in you, for better or worse.

Return to Politics/Religion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest